Post by Ziphion on Aug 4, 2014 9:41:11 GMT -8
I just got my simulator working with character vs. character testing yesterday, and I'd like to share some preliminary results. I've set it up so that I have two characters, named "0" and "1", who are given points in different stats (strength, agility, etc), and then forced to fight to the death for my amusement. I then look at how many times "0" won vs "1", and divide that by the total number of fights to get a win rate.
The first thing I tested was Strength vs. Agility, in the existing setup: Strength improves melee attack, Agility improves ranged (and some melee) attack AND defense, and Life Points = Build + Resolve. In these tests, both opponents are unarmed and unarmored. (I know that Agility-based attacks don't make sense if you're unarmed, but I haven't implemented weapons yet.) As per the rules as written, if a character makes a successful unarmed attack with a ✗ (like if the attacker flips ✗ and the defender flips ✗✗✗), the attack will do (number of checks + number of pips) = 0 damage. Please correct me if I am mistaken there, but that's the assumption I used when performing this first round of tests.
Original system, Character 0 vs "dummy", all character stats = 0 unless indicated in table
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Character 1 stats = 0 across the board
Strength (blue) and Agility (red) vs. a "dummy" character with 0's for all stats:
On average, Agility was 4.4% better. What about if both Character 0 and Character 1 have Build = 1 (and therefore 4 HP instead of 3)? Both sets of numbers are a little higher, and Agility's edge drops to 4.0%.
Another way to test Strength vs. Agility is to have a character with points in Strength and a character with points in Agility duke it out.
Original system, Strong 0 vs Agile 1, all other character stats = 0
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Overall, Agility's chances to win against Strength are about 6.6% higher than 50-50. It gets worse as Build increases (10.8% for Build = 1, 11.4% for Build = 2)
Next, I tried testing some alternatives, and this one seemed promising. Three changes:
1) Use Strength instead of Resolve for HP
2) Add one "weapon pip" of damage to all unarmed attacks
3) Life Points get a +4 bonus instead of +3, to make up for the extra damage mentioned in 2).
Altered system, Character 0 vs "dummy", all character stats = 0 unless indicated in table
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Character 1 stats = 0 across the board
Strength (blue) and Agility (red) vs. a "dummy" character with 0's for all stats:
Strength has the edge now, but not by much: only 3.6%. When we increase both characters' Build up to 1, that difference drops to 1.4% and the blue/red curves are almost identical.
Strength vs. Agility in the altered system:
Altered system, Strong 0 vs Agile 1, all other character stats = 0
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Not great; Strength's chances to beat Agility are now about 10.7% higher than 50-50. But giving both characters Build = 1 flattens this out nicely (0.6%):
Anyway, this altered system obviously isn't perfect, and I still need to test how things change when weapons/armors are involved, but just from these results it seems like a better solution may exist. Even though Agility's combat advantage over Strength seems small, it was enough to demoralize my gaming group from picking a Strength-based character for our upcoming demo play test, which was my motivation for looking for alternatives in the first place. It's also the principle of the thing, how Strength-based characters must choose between offense and defense each time they level, while Agility-based characters can choose both with no penalty.
Side note: another reason why I think character creation could use some improvement is the fact that Life Points and Power Points are inextricably linked; LP = PP + 3, always. This is very limiting, in my opinion. As an example, consider these two fellows, who I shall name Big Smasher and Little Wiz:
Big Smasher is good at smashing things, and not much else. He doesn't have any aptitude for fancy swordplay techniques or special powers, but he does hit hard, and he can sustain a lot of damage before going down.
Little Wiz is a very skilled and learned adventurer, who knows every spell in the book. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and can pull out quite a few of them in a fight, but he is a fragile little guy who can't take a hit.
Neither of these characters are possible to create with Simple System without some special additions like skill cards or class cards. I realize that the derived stats will always limit the possibility of creating some type of character build, but the "High Hit Points, Low Mana" and "Low Hit Points, High Mana" tropes are very common in RPGs, and I feel like requiring a "patch" (skill cards etc) to be able to make them seems like a clunky solution. A better one may exist.
More tests to follow!
The first thing I tested was Strength vs. Agility, in the existing setup: Strength improves melee attack, Agility improves ranged (and some melee) attack AND defense, and Life Points = Build + Resolve. In these tests, both opponents are unarmed and unarmored. (I know that Agility-based attacks don't make sense if you're unarmed, but I haven't implemented weapons yet.) As per the rules as written, if a character makes a successful unarmed attack with a ✗ (like if the attacker flips ✗ and the defender flips ✗✗✗), the attack will do (number of checks + number of pips) = 0 damage. Please correct me if I am mistaken there, but that's the assumption I used when performing this first round of tests.
Original system, Character 0 vs "dummy", all character stats = 0 unless indicated in table
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Character 1 stats = 0 across the board
Char 0's Strength | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 78.9% |
2 | 88.8% |
3 | 92.1% |
Char 0's Agility | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 83.7% |
2 | 93.2% |
3 | 96.0% |
Strength (blue) and Agility (red) vs. a "dummy" character with 0's for all stats:
On average, Agility was 4.4% better. What about if both Character 0 and Character 1 have Build = 1 (and therefore 4 HP instead of 3)? Both sets of numbers are a little higher, and Agility's edge drops to 4.0%.
Another way to test Strength vs. Agility is to have a character with points in Strength and a character with points in Agility duke it out.
Original system, Strong 0 vs Agile 1, all other character stats = 0
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
0's Str and 1's Agi | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 44.3% |
2 | 43.7% |
3 | 42.3% |
Overall, Agility's chances to win against Strength are about 6.6% higher than 50-50. It gets worse as Build increases (10.8% for Build = 1, 11.4% for Build = 2)
Next, I tried testing some alternatives, and this one seemed promising. Three changes:
1) Use Strength instead of Resolve for HP
2) Add one "weapon pip" of damage to all unarmed attacks
3) Life Points get a +4 bonus instead of +3, to make up for the extra damage mentioned in 2).
Altered system, Character 0 vs "dummy", all character stats = 0 unless indicated in table
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
Character 1 stats = 0 across the board
Char 0's Strength | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 82.7% |
2 | 95.2% |
3 | 98.8% |
Char 0's Agility | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 79.5% |
2 | 91.1% |
3 | 95.2% |
Strength (blue) and Agility (red) vs. a "dummy" character with 0's for all stats:
Strength has the edge now, but not by much: only 3.6%. When we increase both characters' Build up to 1, that difference drops to 1.4% and the blue/red curves are almost identical.
Strength vs. Agility in the altered system:
Altered system, Strong 0 vs Agile 1, all other character stats = 0
Each value represents 100,000 fights-to-the-death
0's Str and 1's Agi | 0's Win Rate |
0 | 50.0% |
1 | 54.3% |
2 | 65.5% |
3 | 65.3% |
Not great; Strength's chances to beat Agility are now about 10.7% higher than 50-50. But giving both characters Build = 1 flattens this out nicely (0.6%):
Anyway, this altered system obviously isn't perfect, and I still need to test how things change when weapons/armors are involved, but just from these results it seems like a better solution may exist. Even though Agility's combat advantage over Strength seems small, it was enough to demoralize my gaming group from picking a Strength-based character for our upcoming demo play test, which was my motivation for looking for alternatives in the first place. It's also the principle of the thing, how Strength-based characters must choose between offense and defense each time they level, while Agility-based characters can choose both with no penalty.
Side note: another reason why I think character creation could use some improvement is the fact that Life Points and Power Points are inextricably linked; LP = PP + 3, always. This is very limiting, in my opinion. As an example, consider these two fellows, who I shall name Big Smasher and Little Wiz:
Big Smasher is good at smashing things, and not much else. He doesn't have any aptitude for fancy swordplay techniques or special powers, but he does hit hard, and he can sustain a lot of damage before going down.
Little Wiz is a very skilled and learned adventurer, who knows every spell in the book. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and can pull out quite a few of them in a fight, but he is a fragile little guy who can't take a hit.
Neither of these characters are possible to create with Simple System without some special additions like skill cards or class cards. I realize that the derived stats will always limit the possibility of creating some type of character build, but the "High Hit Points, Low Mana" and "Low Hit Points, High Mana" tropes are very common in RPGs, and I feel like requiring a "patch" (skill cards etc) to be able to make them seems like a clunky solution. A better one may exist.
More tests to follow!