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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 2, 2014 14:18:58 GMT -8
You will no longer add the checks from your attacks to damage. Discuss.
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 2, 2014 14:42:12 GMT -8
It would make the best colored equipment more valuable. Probably would make combat a bit less deadly low level before players start getting access to the good equipment.
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Post by Arcanet on Sept 2, 2014 16:00:38 GMT -8
So hit resolution and damage resolution use checks and pips, respectively? Your skill at using a weapon determines how often you hit something, and the weapons quality how deadly said hit can be. I like that.
Also, a skill or a weapon attribute that would let you add the checks into your damage, could now be a powerful but not overly deadly choice, at the cost of something more specialized.
...Mmm, what does an unarmed melee strike do now?
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 2, 2014 17:44:11 GMT -8
What if you added your strength pips to all melee attacks, armed and unarmed? Thoughts?
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 2, 2014 19:14:10 GMT -8
I would suggest Unarmed melee strikes just be assigned a color in general for determining pips on damage , which could be modified by items, skills, or class/race. (I'd probably just say everyone's unarmed attacks are blue and let skills and stuff differentiate big strong people, and specialized unarmed fighters from the weaklings)
I don't know about also adding your strength's pips to damage. It's not like in a d20 game where the strength addition scales a bit slowly, if you have the same color strength as your weapon you're doubling your damage output.
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 2, 2014 20:26:12 GMT -8
Valid points. On the other hand, it would give melee characters a nice buff, potentially offsetting the boost to both ranged attacks and defense gained when raising agility. The damage boost also tops out at +3 (since red is the highest you can go with pips). It makes sense to me that a wimpy guy with an ax does far less damage than a huge brute with the same weapon.
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 2, 2014 21:18:31 GMT -8
(Are we using the pips from the character sheet or from the resolution card flipped for the attack to determine the extra damage from strength?)
It's tough to say. It kind of feels like it could easily be too fast of a damage boost for melee characters considering there are only 6 levels and you don't get much hp. I kinda fear a melee character who takes hard hitter and charge (based off how they read from the demo cards) that would do a lot of damage on the charge attack -.-. Though I suppose I haven't really played enough to know how fast leveling up occurs.
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 2, 2014 23:06:46 GMT -8
Oh yeah, those skills will definitely have to be adjusted. (actually come to think of it, they already have been!)
We're talking about the pips from the resolution card used to resolve the attack.
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Post by directedbyme on Sept 3, 2014 9:52:17 GMT -8
I think each weapon could be different further individualizing the weapons. For example: A knife might not get to add Stregnth Pips but a broadsword might! Or maybe we leave room for magic weapons/tech modified to be extra special if they allow you to add Strength pips. It would be like +1 Sword in D&D.
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Ziphion
Full Member
Resident Mathematician
Posts: 132
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Post by Ziphion on Sept 3, 2014 10:24:30 GMT -8
Very interesting idea. As you say, DI, adding Strength pips to melee damage and not adding checks to damage could balance nicely with ranged characters' defense bonus, without adding Strength to Life Points as I'd suggested. I'm eager to simulate this damage scheme ASAP, but tonight I'm actually running the demo play test (I'll post details of how it goes!). I also like directedbyme's suggestion of making some melee weapons not get the Strength pip damage bonus (like, say, the Electro-Lash from the demo). This could be a really elegant solution.
It's funny you guys mention Hard Hitter and Charge, because I noticed those skills being a bit overpowered already; for my playtest tonight, I added a line to Charge that makes the movement count as a "run" (so you have to flip Build to avoid a complication), and I just removed Hard Hitter from the list of skill options since it was so much stronger than other combat-oriented skills... DI, you mentioned something about adjusting those skills?
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 3, 2014 10:55:59 GMT -8
I believe I left charge unchanged, but I changed hard hitter. Now it reads if you flip two checks you add blue pips to melee damage, and if you flip three chicks you add green pips to melee damage.
I've submitted the Roll20 module, you might just be able to load it up before your game tonight and take a look. One change you will most likely want to add to your game, now when creating characters players can set one ability to yellow, two abilities to green, and the rest start at Blue (0).
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 3, 2014 10:59:46 GMT -8
Oh and I like the idea to include in the description for some weapons that you do not add your strength's pips, makes sense for smaller weapons. Good idea directedbyme, looks like you've already got your Simple Smith thinking hat on!
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Ziphion
Full Member
Resident Mathematician
Posts: 132
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Post by Ziphion on Sept 3, 2014 12:04:48 GMT -8
Hm... let's think about this new combat change a little more. A character with, say, 1 point in Agility and a green ranged weapon would deal 2 damage on average (2.08 damage when you include criticals). Another character with 1 point in Strength and a green melee weapon would deal 4 damage on average (4.17 with crits), with the exact same chance to hit. That's a huge damage boost to Strength characters, which will definitely overshoot the imbalance. How about this: Agility-based attacks (ranged and light weapons, like daggers/whips) add checks to damage, while Strength-based attacks add your Strength's pips to damage? As if to say, your accuracy allows you to hit weak points better as an Agility-based character, but as a Strength-based character you just hit harder. The average damage boosts would look like this (including crits, not including attacks that succeed on a strike and thus would deal 0 extra damage for an Agility character) Ability Score | Strength | Agility | 0 | 1.583 | 1.444 | 1 | 2.083 | 2.000 | 2 | 2.583 | 2.238 | 3 | 3.083 | 2.370 |
So this way, Strength gets a slight edge, which might better balance with Agility's defense bonus. I'll test this out as soon as I can.
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Post by directedbyme on Sept 3, 2014 12:31:03 GMT -8
Ziphion - I do like that idea!
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 3, 2014 16:06:57 GMT -8
Very interesting, I like that idea a lot. I would be interested to see if you do any further simulations based on that model. What are your thoughts on the advantage granted by agility to defense and how that influences balance between ranged and melee characters? I know this was discussed before, but perhaps the new damage models could be included in a 1v1 simulation between ranged and melee characters. Also, what is the potential to simulate one extra attack on the part of the ranged character since they can start attacking while the melee character is busy moving into attack range.
The rules released today have the damage model mentioned in the original post, throughout the month we'll have lots of opportunity to discuss them and make any final adjustments for the final version of the manual.
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