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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 5, 2014 0:09:36 GMT -8
I'm kind of stuck on a certain point, and that's using hero points at extremely low levels (-1, -2, etc.) that require multiflips. Currently the rule for Hero Points and multiflips is you simply flip two extra cards and choose from the best of all flipped. This works for high level multiflips, but for low level multiflips (when you usually pick the worst card) following the same rule means the lower you go the greater your chance becomes of success, since you're flipping more and more cards to choose from. This leads to a "the worse the flip the better" scenario when doing low level multiflips.
Any suggestions on a straightforward way to avoid this?
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Post by Arcanet on Sept 5, 2014 0:34:36 GMT -8
How about this: You're at -2 triple blue, and play a hero point.
You draw: 3 check, two check, strike, 3 strike, 3 strike.
Out of these you'd drop the two best cards, and choose the best of the three remaining cards, a strike in the example above.
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 5, 2014 2:29:11 GMT -8
Or instead of having the hero point let you draw more cards, you could just have the hero point let you chose the best out of the multiflip when you are normally required to chose the worst, much simpler I think. Though I suppose you'd have to look into if that would improve your chances of success enough for the cost of a hero point.
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 5, 2014 4:04:29 GMT -8
That is simpler, but unfortunately it still has the same issue of making a -2 flip better than a -1, since -2 gives you more cards to choose from. I like Arcanet's idea, it is not overly complex and would eliminate the problem.
I still feel there is a simpler way out there, any further ideas?
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 5, 2014 4:32:36 GMT -8
Ah, hadn't thought about that.The only other suggestion I can think of that would be simple, would be remove the flip 3 cards hero point action and replace it with a turn up.
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Post by Arcanet on Sept 5, 2014 4:50:56 GMT -8
Another idea would be to change the whole Hero Point mechanic into a sort of "Take-10" -like deal:
Draw two extra cards, arrange from best to worst, pick the middle one, round up on even draw multiflip.
That way a 3-red flip would be better than the same cards in a 1-red hero flip, as it should be.
Inversely, a 3-blue flip would be worse than the same cards in a 1-blue hero flip.
A 5-red hero flip would then fill the role of "I need to succeed NOW, screw doing it elegantly as long as it works."
A 5-blue hero flip would be like a burst of adrenaline, you manage to save a doomed to fail maneuver, but you're still up that famous creek with no paddle. Better hope your party members will assist your next try, or it isn't going to go any better.
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Post by aetesaki on Sept 5, 2014 5:09:11 GMT -8
Kiss, thank you! It is suppose to be the Simple System, let's keep it simple, stupid!  The rules for changing the attempt by hero point seem nice to me, though if you want to change it, why not just do a reflip? No extras, just discard and do it again. Seems simple enough. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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Ziphion
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Post by Ziphion on Sept 5, 2014 7:53:46 GMT -8
Simplest solution in my mind: if you're at -2 blue, and you play a hero card, you just flip single blue. If you're at -1 blue and play a hero card, play two blues and pick the best. Treat it like a scale: flip 3 and pick worst => flip 2 and pick worst => flip 1 => flip 2 and pick best (etc). In the same way, if you're flipping any of the base colors (0-3) and have a complication and play a hero card, you only flip 2 and pick best.
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Post by aetesaki on Sept 5, 2014 8:11:26 GMT -8
Not sure what you mean, ziphion? Is that a turn up or a reflip at a turn up?
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Post by Arcanet on Sept 5, 2014 9:49:35 GMT -8
Simplest solution in my mind: if you're at -2 blue, and you play a hero card, you just flip single blue. If you're at -1 blue and play a hero card, play two blues and pick the best. Treat it like a scale: flip 3 and pick worst => flip 2 and pick worst => flip 1 => flip 2 and pick best (etc). In the same way, if you're flipping any of the base colors (0-3) and have a complication and play a hero card, you only flip 2 and pick best. A refinement of Ziphions point above, what if Hero Points would be exactly like an inverted Complication? Just a double turn up, in case of multi-red, pick best. No need to flip multiple cards. If this changes the odds too much I'm not sure. |
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Post by Dashing Inventor on Sept 5, 2014 10:06:09 GMT -8
Thinking it over this morning, I think I've come up with the easiest solution. The real purpose of the hero point is to allow players to do something impressive right when they need it most, even in the most dismal situations. It's true that a combination of low skill and bad circumstances could drive flips to extremely low levels, to the point where there would be no reason to spend a hero point or even make the attempt in the first place, which doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Therefore I think the best solution is to make 0 the lowest level at which you can use a hero point. If you're starting attempt is below zero, using the hero point automatically brings it up 0 and you get to flip the three blue cards and choose the best as per the norm. That keeps it simple, and makes sure hero points count even in the worst situations.
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Ziphion
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Post by Ziphion on Sept 5, 2014 10:58:46 GMT -8
Sorry, I was on my phone and in a rush when I wrote that response. Let me clarify. There's no need to complicate or add extra asterisks to using Hero Cards, because their mechanic is very simple and should work in any situation.
When you flip additional cards and are forced to pick the worst result, consider those extra cards as "negative".
Likewise, when you flip additional cards and are allowed to pick the best result, those extra cards are "positive".
Negative extra cards cancel out with positive extra cards.
Examples:
1) A character with -2 in Strength tries to lift a vehicle to save someone trapped underneath, and uses a Hero Point.
Normally he'd flip three blue cards and pick the worst result. With the Hero Point, he would normally add two extra cards and pick the best.
Positive and negative extra cards cancel out, so he flips no extra cards at all; just one blue card. That's his Strength flip result.
2) A character with a 1 in Strength has a complication on their next attempt because she failed the Build check after running.
She wants to attack an enemy, and she uses a Hero Point for the attack.
Normally she'd flip a single green card.
Two positive extra cards (Hero) - one negative extra card (comp) = flip two green cards and pick the best.
3) A character with a 5 in Intelligence is trying to hack a tough security system, but he has a complication because of a wicked hangover.
Normally he'd flip three red cards and pick the best.
Two positive extra cards (high ability) - one negative extra card (comp) = flip two red cards and pick the best.
I should mention that for all of these extra card flips, criticals only should count as criticals if they are the first card flipped. Otherwise you just count the checks like you would for any other card. The reason I say this is because we've already decided that's how criticals should work with "high ability" and "low ability" multiflips, and I think it's unnecessarily complicated if multiflips don't work the same way when using Hero Points or getting complications. Also, flipping three cards and using any critical success that pops up would give you a greater than 25% 23.59% chance at a crit... Perhaps players can remove that "first card" restriction through a skill, or maybe by spending another Hero Point.
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Post by LordAnubis on Sept 5, 2014 19:15:11 GMT -8
It'd be easier to just say turn up twice, as that is effectively what you describe there Ziphion.
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Post by Arcanet on Sept 6, 2014 11:49:01 GMT -8
I like the idea of Hero points as, most of the time, an on demand +2 modifier, like complications are -1. They won't guarantee you succeed at what you're trying to do, they just make it much more likely.
I'd also consider letting the effects 'stack', ie. You're at blue and use a hero point to go to yellow and make a flip, but still fail. You go "Ah bugger it" and throw another hero card onto the table, and get to flip the yellow again.
And in regard to Perseverance Engine, I'd only let "effective" failed flips count for getting a Perseverance Point. As in, if an effect lets you reflip or flip multiple cards, the strikes of the discarded cards do not give a point.
This may look like it'd waste hero points, but you'll be getting more of them now, thanks to the Perseverance Engine.
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Ziphion
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Post by Ziphion on Sept 6, 2014 13:51:23 GMT -8
You know, I like that better. That's probably the simplest solution: change Hero Cards to mean "turn up twice" for your next attempt, and Complications to mean "turn down once". Green with a complication = blue. Green with a hero point = red. You could still use Hero Cards to reflip a failed attempt as well.
Effects like "flip three green and pick the best" could be saved for special cases like powers.
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